SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS
* The strange thing about episodes at this stage is that you can’t really be shocked by any deaths, because you only have four episodes to go including tonight’s and this show being what it is you know some major characters are going to die, while moreover there are only so many left to kill. It’s not like early on where every death was a stunner because whoa, they killed a main character; it’s not like later where you knew what they were capable of but never were quite sure when or on whom the ax would fall. Now the only question is, like, will Kate’s bullet wound be fatal, or will Sawyer’s charge of the Light Brigade give him the blaze of glory we’ve all be reasonably sure he’s been heading for.
* Turns out the answer in both cases is no, which I’m glad for; I didn’t expect Sawyer or Kate to die this early, not really, but nor did I expect Jin and Sun to die at all. That strikes me as a real gutpunch to the show’s own emotional core. Jin and Sun episodes were as constant as the sunrise.
* What I’m really glad about is the final scene with the castaways, where you finally have them react to loss the way people in the real world react, which is to cry. When Hurley broke down…yeah, that was a toughie.
* I’m glad Sayid was redeemed in the end, via one of the show’s favorite paths to redemption, volunteering to take the brunt of a bomb blast. It was good to have old, calm, expert Sayid back one last time. Plus, “It’s going to be you, Jack.” Nice and cryptic.
* I felt bad for Jin and Sun’s kid. I spent most of that scene figuring Sun would finally say “you have to live for Ji Yeon” and Jin would reluctantly swim to safety. As it turns out they didn’t appear to be thinking about Ji Yeon. Sorry, kid.
* Jack being right about the bomb was a step in the redemption direction for a character that fans and fellow characters alike have written off as a habitual fuck-up, so of course I liked that.
* I figure Lapidus will live to quip another day. Or not, I don’t really care, he was kind of a waste of time all told. It’s nice that he was genre-y, but so what.
* I know that the flashsideways material should feel like an afterthought or an also-ran in an episode like this, but it didn’t. Those right there are your two central characters hashing some major things out. That scene in the hospital hallway at the end, where John laughs at the notion of letting go, is one of my favorites in the whole history of the show.
* I was also very happy, for some reason, to see Jack meet Helen. Somehow that makes Locke’s happiness more real…?
* Did you notice the editing that suggested Jack was dreaming of his flashsideways self?
* Glad to get rid of the miscast dougy scientist Widmorian. (Widmoron?)
* So how long has the MIB’s plan been in effect? Just recently, or was he trying to get other people to kill off the Candidates, or get them to kill each other, all along? Maybe he needed to bump off Jacob first and only then was it worth going after the Candidates. I suppose that makes sense.
* Where was Widmore during the various fracases?
* I wonder if we won’t get the big “here’s the secret history of the Island and Jacob and the MIB” until the “two-part series finale,” i.e. not next episode but the episode after that.
“Gutpunch” is the perfect term. That was tough to watch (in a good way).
I feel you on the “no deaths are a surprise anymore” thing, but I think Jin and Sun going as a combo may have bucked that simply because it seemed so telegraphed that one would die and the other would survive or they’d both live–did not see the double death coming.
And if ever a single shot did a job of selling the emotion and making it linger, it was Jin and Sun’s hands letting go underwater. Brr.
As a viewer of the show, I’m glad they didn’t go with the more predictable “one leaves to raise the kid” route simply because, again, it would have been the more obvious road and also because I do think it made sense that they would choose one another over the kid; it was closer to reality than cliche. It just made “real world” sense to me that they’d be thinking more about one another in that moment than their daughter.
So now Jack and Sawyer are even on bad decisions that lead to people dying or am I off on the score?
Where was Widmore indeed? And is he really the good guy?
And hot damn was evil Locke’s creepy smile as they took off in the sub a nasty one. Ditto his crazy intensity to end the episode.
I’m glad there is a tangible agenda of sorts in place in terms of “Locke needs to kill the castaways” instead of the more ambiguous stuff we’re used to. Sure there’s plenty of ambiguity left, but in the very home stretch it’s nice to have at least one point A to point B situation.
So of the original castaways, the only survivors now are Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Claire, Walt and maybe Rose and Bernard. That’s nuts.
As intense an episode as we’ve had in a good long time. More emotion than answers. I needed Glee as a palette-cleanser.
Also, I was sure somebody was gonna get shot in a canoe tonight.
And hey, Sawyer did kinda have a plan for how to pilot a sub!
Ok, now I’m done for now.
The realization that the Smoke Monster was actually trying to kill all the candidates makes a lot more sense than trying to get off the island with everyone.
I’m also realizing that he can’t leave the island as long as just one person (a Jacob or candidate-to-be-new-Jacob) is still there. I don’t like to theorize this specifically, but I have this feeling that the show will come down to getting everyone off the island save for Jack and it will end on an image of Jack and fake Locke sitting with other like “well, now what?” stuck in a new infinite loop of the MIB trying to kill his captor.
I’m also really curious to see where these ‘rules’ come from. What’s physically keeping the Smoke Monster from murdering everyone? Science? Jelly beans? I’m intrigued.
Some thoughts/questions on the bomb and Jack’s stance on it from the One Man Comment Thread (that’s me)…
So did Jack’s “he can’t kill us” assumption about Locke mean he figured Locke can’t kill anybody or just can’t kill the candidates? Because did he figure that the bomb could still kill Kate, Lapidus and either Jin or Sun?
Aside to that: was he basing his theory on the whole scene with Richard and the dynamite or simply on the fact that Locke hadn’t killed them yet? If the former, that doesn’t make much sense, since all the Richard scene proved was that candidates can’t kill *themselves*, thus Locke would have no such restrictions. I’m guessing it was more based on Locke’s lack of murder thus far.
Also, does Jack know who the candidates are? I know Sawyer does, but I can’t remember exactly who else does.
Also also, since Sayid was a candidate, shouldn’t his sacrifice not have killed him or was all that off the table since Sawyer triggered the bomb thus making him the “killer” rather than Sayid himself? Can only candidates kill other candidates? Is Sayid possibly still alive?
I can definitely visualize that final image you described Sam, and it would be a good one. Of course now that you’ve put it out there in the universe, it won’t happen (at least not exactly that way).
MIB is one sneaky villain. I would have bet the ranch back when we first saw the cliffside cave that the cave was MIB’s hang out and the names on the wall were his hit list. It’s looking more like that is the case.
Sayid did redeem himself partially by running off with the C4 and taking one for the team.
It seems obvious that MIB needs all the candidates to die so that he can leave the Island at this point, no? That’s what he means at the end of the Episode. He knows all of the candidates didn’t die in the sub because he still is on the Island or in Locke’s body?
I liked how Jack told MIB that “John Locke” told him to stay before he pushed MIB into the water. I always loved the real Locke and it was nice to see that Jack has taken on his faith.
Sawyer, Sawyer. Dude, stop botching everything! How do you not trust Jack in the sub scene with the ticking C4? That was so annoying. It was obvious that MIB had totally played them all and had everything set up as he had planned. Gotta listen to Jack there Sawyer. Weak.
I think pretty much everything MIB has done has been calculated. I am sure there has been some unforseen events that he adapts to or believes he has adapted to (i.e. Desmond) but I think in general, he is in control.
I hope Jack has to actually vanquish MIB and not just hang out with him for eternity.
Killing the Candidates:
-it looks like the rules are they can’t die by their own hand, or accidentally, or by MIB directly killing them. I’m not sure if non-candidates other than the MIB can kill them, but I think so.
-So Jack’s reasoning was that, since (a)MIB told him he could kill them at any time, and (b) MIB obviously does want them dead, then (c) there was a reason MIB didn’t kill them.
Jack came up with that MIB isn’t allowed to kill them. Which is why MIB couldn’t just throw the bomb in the sub; it would be a dud automatically, because he would then be directly trying to kill them.
But if he put a timer on it, it gives the MIB an outside chance that they would discover the bomb, and set it off themselves, making them their own instrument of their destruction. A very slim chance, but the best I can figure as to what MIB’s plan was. I wonder if they hadn’t found the bomb if it would have gone off?
But it’s interesting then; if candidates can’t kill themselves, then although Sawyer setting off the bomb might kill everyone else, wouldn’t he at least then be exempt?
And I don’t get Widmore’s reasoning behind putting a bomb on the plane. He seems to know the rules, and what keeps the MIB on the island. If he wants the candidates to stay alive, wouldn’t blowing up the plane with all of them on it be contrary to that?
I guess, dynamite has shown to affect MIB way back in the season 1 finale. Maybe a big enough explosion would actually kill the MIB? So is Widmore thinking that if he can kill the MIB, then who cares if all the candidates are killed at that point?
Let’s not rule out that MIB could have put the bomb on the plane himself at some point in the past to use it when they tried to escape then just snatched it for his sub plan instead. He certainly seemed to know what he was looking for.
Sayid already died so he wasn’t a candidate anymore, I think… right? And technically the bomb only killed Sayid, who was no longer a candidate. If Sayid hadn’t run off with the bomb and it had been left there staring at all the remaining candidate’s faces, then would it still have gone off? And technically the bomb only killed Sayid, it was other factors – mainly, water – that killed the Jin and Sun. They were side-effects of the detonation but who knows where the line is drawn, I guess.
Anyway my heads hurts and I miss Sun and Jin.
I was really glad when Jin promised to stay behind with Sun, mainly because it’s a hopelessly romantic thing to do – and Lost is the best hopelessly romantic show on TV right now – but also because it means we won’t get more scenes of one of them endlessly yearning for the other. There has been enough of that.
Besides, the tragedy of the whole affair was all there in Hurley’s sob.
At this stage of the series, I was half expecting the entire sub to blow up seconds after it started moving away. That would have thrown a whole new light on the last few episodes…
Ben:
* Yeah, I didn’t see the tandem death coming either. Gutsy, for all the reasons you run down.
* You’re right: Fake Locke’s TCB attitude at the end there was an excellent cliffhanger.
* From the feedback I’m seeing here and there–including from you and Sam–people really did seem to want a clearer explanation for the MIB’s actions–good, bad, or indifferent. Yet another “We need everyone to join together to do something, just ‘cuz” wasn’t cutting it. “I need you all to stand in one place and not move so I can blow you up” is a hook you can hang your hat on!
* Don’t forget Cindy and the kids from Oceanic 815! It’s unclear if they got blown up by Widmore’s mortar attack or were among those who “scattered into the jungle.” Don’t forget Vincent either!
* Jesus, I cannot imagine watching Glee. It’s like every obnoxious theater kid you ever knew got ground into a fine explosive powder then fired into your face with a shotgun at point-blank range.
* Re: “He can’t kill us”–he knows he can kill SOME people, we’ve seen him do that time and again. I think he deduced that he can’t kill the Candidates, or else they’d be dead by now. (He was filled in on that by Richard, I believe, or Ilana, can’t remember, but he definitely knows.)
* I believe Sayid’s sacrifice was possible due to Sawyer’s actions negating the whole “the MIB cannot directly cause the death of a Candidate” rule. It’s not really a suicide–someone else “pulled the trigger,” if you will. At any rate, there’s no hard and fast rule against suicides, not like “MIB can’t kill Candidates”–it’s just a question of whether or not the Island is done with you. The Island wasn’t done with Michael or Richard, for example.
Sam:
* I like your image, but I really think they’ll break the cycle. I’m with Ryan on that.
Ryan:
* Agreed on the cave likely being MIB’s hangout.
* I think you’re right–he could sense he was still stuck on the Island, ergo some Candidates survived.
* Thank you for mentioning the “John Locke told me” bit. That was marvelous, a real in-your-face!!! moment for the Monster and a salute from one hero to another.
* Haha–I didn’t begrudge Sawyer his lack of trust in Jack. Jack got the love of his life killed, after all, and just a couple days ago in Island time–I’d still be smarting from that, too!
Charles R.:
* Very nice, clear “if she weighs the same as a duck, she’s made of wood, and therefore a witch” explanation of what went down with Jack, the MIB, and the bomb. Thanks!
* As for Sawyer, I think the Candidates can probably kill themselves by fucking up. Perhaps they just can’t do it on purpose, but even there I’m not convinced there’s a hard and fast rule against suicide, as I said.
* As Ben points out, do we really even know Widmore put that bomb on the plane? It could have all been a ruse by the MIB. It’s difficult to interpret his facial expressions during that scene–what looked like carefully checking an unexpected wire could have simply been him using it to find where he stashed the bomb in the first place.
There a couple of lengthier things I’ve thought about since last night I wanted to hash out here.
1) As I watched the show and wrote it up immediately afterwards, I was thinking about Jin and Sun’s death mostly in terms of its execution, and (as I said above) how we anticipate process deaths on the show at this stage in its run. But now I find that what’s sticking with me about it the most, what’s sort of blowing my mind, is that Jin and Sun’s whoooooole saga–all those Jin and Sun episodes, their estrangement and rapprochement in Season One, the pregnancy and infidelity stuff in Season Two, Mr. Paik’s criminal empire, their separation, Sun believing Jin was dead, Jin spending three years as a security guard/surveyor for a utopian community in the fucking 1970s, Sun returning on the crashed Ajira plane, all the nuttiness with Fake Locke, their daughter, everything–ends with the two of them drowning on a sinking submarine. Yeesh.
2) I have a new semi-theory about the Flashsidewayses. My operating theory up until this point was, basically, the Last Temptation of Christ/”For the Man Who Has Everything” model. Somehow, they get warped into a better but nonetheless not-real world, and once they realize that’s what’s going on, they must choose to sacrifice what they have in the alternate reality in order to save someone or something in the real reality–or save that real reality itself even. But now, I don’t think there’s enough time left in the show to develop that the way they’d need to, to get to some point in the next couple episodes where that warping happens, and then undo it in the couple episodes after that.
So what I think is going on now is that the flashsideways reality is, for want of a better term, their reward for doing whatever they end up doing in the real world to defeat the Monster. The process of them “waking up” and remembering the real world isn’t one of them then needing to fight their way back to the real world–it’s a way for them to hang on to all the memories they had of their original lives, but still move on and have the happier lives they now have in the alternate reality. It’s their happy ending.
Wow!
Now the stilted Sun/Jin reunion scene kinda makes sense – they wanted to save the real emotional punch for this episode.
The sideways stuff in this episode was even better than the island stuff – of course because we got a big dose of Locke. Terry O’Quinn was really killing it in this episode.
Just an observation (probably means nothing), but it’s interesting seeing who was left on the beach at the end of the episode. It was the same four that were bound with sacks over their heads on the Others’ dock at the end of season two.
What happened with Richard and Ben blowing up the plane?
“Don’t forget Vincent either!”
Wasn’t Vincent left back in ’77 with Bernard and Rose, with the 3 of them as the only “supporting castaways” to survive the Others’ attack in (I think) ’54?
Speaking of Bernard and Rose, how did the writers manage to have Jack and Hurley revisit the damned caves and not have their light bulbs go off about the identities of Adam and Eve?
I know, I know. Cut for time, and for more of Jack’s “daddy issues.”
That is quite the astute observation, Chris…
Chris: Yep. Not to mention that the last time (the real) John Locke was on that dock and saw a sub, he blew it up.
Jason:
* I believe you’re right that Sayid, having been actually killed, was technically no longer a candidate. I don’t think it matters much, though, since his death was technically caused not by himself or the MIB but by Sawyer, per the MIB’s big plan. Same with Jin and Sun.
Bob:
* Yes, this show is super-hopelessly romantic. I think the most comparable show to Lost, all things considered, is Battlestar Galactica, and Lost makes BSG look absolutely nihilistic by comparison.
COOP:
* Excellent point regarding the strangely paced reunion in the previous episode. They were keeping their powder dry until they could get Jin and Sun wet, as it were.
* As for Richard and Ben blowing up the plane, perhaps it was they who rigged it with the C4?
Chris:
* I bet that means something. Don’t sell yourself short! (I’m still wondering why Pickett said Jack wasn’t on Jacob’s list in Season Three, when he clearly is/was.)
Gene:
* Yeah, Vincent’s stranded in time with Rose and Bernard. I was counting them anyway since they haven’t been killed.
I think alot of the weird, vile, and condradictory things the Others did, like Pickett saying Jack wasn’t on Jacob’s list, is going to be attributed to Ben usurping control of the Others without having any direction from Jacob for the duration. I hope they reveal a better explanation, but I can sadly see this as not being addressed and becoming the implied answer.
For me and other little nagging minutiae, I’m still wondering why Sun didn’t flash back to 1977 with the rest of the Oceanic Six.
“I felt bad for Jin and Sun’s kid. I spent most of that scene figuring Sun would finally say ‘you have to live for Ji Yeon’ and Jin would reluctantly swim to safety. As it turns out they didn’t appear to be thinking about Ji Yeon. Sorry, kid.”
I had the exact same thought. It was surprisingly anticlimactic for me…
I haven’t thought about this a great deal, and will gladly be proven wrong, but it seems to me that since the MIB doesn’t know who Jacob’s replacement is, putting all of them in an enclosed space with a bomb was a solid way of finding out who it could be – Jacob’s replacement would survive.