SPOILERZAPOPPIN
* Explain to me how “We’re takin’ the sub” constitutes a) a cliffhanger; b) an adequate response to their lack of a pilot to fly the plain, unless Sawyer became a sub captain during his Dharma days and I missed it.
* So that part was pretty irritating, and since it’s the end of the episode, it left something of a sour taste in my mouth.
* I suppose I’m also frustrated that my “Widmore’s coming to pick up the MIB” theory didn’t pan out. Well, as far as we know. Everyone is just lying to everyone else all the time now, then admitting it and moving on, so I figure both Fake Locke and Widmore are entitled to be bullshitting about this too.
* Actually, maybe I’m just frustrated by everyone lying all the time. What is this, Gossip Girl?
* Anyway, now that we’ve (in theory) learned that Widmore isn’t on MIB’s side after all, how many factions are really in play over the course of the show? You’ve got Widmore’s people. Ben’s Others. Jacob still seems separate from the Others to me. Then there’s the MIB. The Dharma Initiative. The castaways. Rousseau. The French team?
* In the “pro” column on this week’s installment: Sawyer’s a character who can really hold an episode, and while I’m sure the cop stuff in the flashsideways is as egregious inaccurate as was the teacher stuff in the Ben flashsideways last week, I’m not married to a cop and wasn’t raised by a cop so it didn’t bother me, and instead made a lot of sense as a road Sawyer–or more accurately, in this case, Jim Ford–could have gone down. It makes at least as much sense to become a cop and track down the con man who destroyed your family as it does to become a con man yourself to do it.
* And again we see a character confronting and surmounting the emotional issues that bedeviled them in the original timeline. Jack puts his daddy issues to rest and mends fences with his own son; Locke lets go of his rage and compulsion to prove everyone wrong and allows himself a happy life with his wife-to-be; Sawyer opens up, trusts someone, and knowingly puts a huge if not insurmountable roadblock in the way of pursuing his grudge to its murderous end. In all three cases these aren’t storybook happy endings, but in the immortal words of Bruce Wayne, “This would be a good life…good enough.”
* On the other hand, we’d previously put Kate in this category–instead of running, she came back to care for Claire–but of course here she’s still running. And ending up in the hands of Sawyer/Ford in a fashion reminiscent of Sayid finding Jin.
* Which raises the question: Why the hell did Sawyer, a cop, let a woman in handcuffs go at the airport in the first place? Was it because he didn’t want to reveal to anyone that he was there? Wouldn’t there be ways to tip someone off without saying “I’m a cop”–like not helping her sneak past security, for example? Well, maybe this’ll come out during her interrogation, I don’t know.
* Lots of cameos in this episode. Good to see Charlie’s brother.
* Good to see Charlotte, too! She was never my favorite, but I liked her here, and not just because she looked better than she’d ever looked before. Well, okay, maybe because she looked better than she’d ever looked before. But kudos to Rebecca Mader for that anyway. She was convincingly sexy, and she handled the infuriating humiliation of being angrily booted from a bedroom just minutes after having sex convincingly too.
* (Speaking of which, this is only relevant to Tri-State Area viewers, but one of the things I’ll miss about Lost are those little five second glimpses of Liz Cho during the teaser commercial for Eyewitness News.)
* I don’t know if this says more about Lost or what watching Lost does to people, but Fake Locke tells Sawyer he’s the smoke monster, Sawyer asks about why he killed all those people but not a peep about “what the fuck are you, smoke monster???”, and I barely even blinked.
* Haha, the “I’m just a scared and lonely survivor please don’t hurt me” routine’s been done before, Zoe, and by a better actor than you. Won’t get fooled again!
* Even though it was (too) quickly defused, the creepiness of Claire being all friendsy with Kate and then trying to cut her throat while Sayid looked on all sedated-like, then Fake Locke coldcocking Claire to talk her down, was really somethin’. I wasn’t sure what kind of mileage they’d get out of these sorts of scenes, but it worked, not least because crying is something Evangeline Lilly does well.
I like how all of the sideways settings are like standard TV shows: crime show, hospital show, teaching show, cop show…
That wasn’t a terrible ending, but after the magnificent cliffhangers the show has been delivering in recent weeks, it was a letdown.
When Fake Locke was talking about his crazy Mom, the first thing that popped into my mind was “Hey, maybe he’s Grendel!” This might be a textbook case of overthinking the fuck out of something, but Lost does like to mix up its mythologies.
The reveal of Det. James Ford was so great. I knew the briefcase full of cash was going to make an appearance, but the revelation that he was a cop–and Miles was his partner!–just really tickled me.
Speaking of Season 1 Sawyer callbacks, we get both Watership Down AND a further exploration of his previously admitted love for Little House.
Yeah, holy crap, Rebecca Mader. Charlotte was definitely looking for something besides a t-shirt in that drawer, right? She sure seemed pleased to have found the Sawyer notebook. Assuming I’m not imagining this, I wonder what (if anything) that was about.
I kinda dug Jungle Tina Fey too. And maybe I’m super-slow, but I was really happy when I finally realized she was working for Widmore (for some reason I was convinced for a few minutes that she was part of Ilana’s crew).
Man, that little half-smile Locke gave Kate when he offered her his hand. And his speech to Kate about his crazy mother and all the trouble she caused him–was that Locke or MIB talking? We know that Real Locke had a crazy mother, but he also says “a long time ago, before I looked like this, I had a mother just like everyone else.” Definitely seems like there’s something more going on there than MIB channeling Locke’s own family history. And then the explicit parallel he draws between himself and Aaron…
(For some reason I find it highly amusing that the ABC program info for this episode calls him “the Locke Monster.” The Locke Mess Monster? It almost works.)
As a last line, “We’re taking the sub” is kind of a dud, but I’m looking forward to seeing how Sawyer’s Yojimbo machinations play out. (I’m sure Sawyer just assumes he can pilot a submarine–it takes training to get a plane in the air, but how hard can it be to get a boat to sink?)
Continuing the “How successful they are in ditching their hang-ups in the sideways world determines their island alignment” train of thought, I took Sawyer’s crutch to be his need for vengeance, and while it seemed he was on his way to getting over it with Miles’ help, Kate’s interrupption made whether or not he actually will succeed ambigiuous enough that it leaves the whose side he’s on questions satisfactorily open in my mind. Well-played.
Ben: I see what you’re saying, but I think Sawyer pausing and then saying “Fair enough” after Miles said he was gonna try to talk him out of it indicated he knew it would be the right thing to do to BE talked out of it. Also from a practical perspective I don’t see how much further they can run the “Sideways Sawyer tracks down his conman archnemesis” ball without it eating up too much valuable time. On the other hand, it’s now a bit of a mystery whether or not “Anthony Cooper” is Locke’s Dad in this timeline, given that Locke and his pop are apparently still on good terms…
Tom: Brilliant observation. It’d be funny if one of them did “paranormal show”!
Bob: Like Gardner, my first instinct with the crazy-mom story was that it was intended to be ambiguous as to whether or not he was speaking as Locke or as the MIB, since Locke too had a crazy mom. I think by the end it was clear it was the MIB, though. (The main reason I thought it was ambiguous was because I couldn’t remember whether or not Kate knew this Locke wasn’t the real Locke, but I think she did.)
The most interesting thing about that story to me is that everyone else in the show is plagued with Daddy issues, to an almost tedious degree. (As is the case with so much nerd fiction.) The MIB is the first character who had a monster for a mom rather than a dad. (I suppose you could count Faraday? But in the end, his dad is Widmore, who’s an even bigger creep than Hawking, no?)
Gardner: I just began volume two of George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire, and there’s a great part coming up for Rebecca Mader in season two of A Game of Thrones on HBO somewhere down the line.
That said, I think you’re probably reading too much into Charlotte’s rummaging. She just wanted a t-shirt! I thought her big smile upon finding the Sawyer folder was just because she thought the picture of Jim as a kid was cute–once she saw the newspaper article about the murder-suicide, she quit grinning real fast.
I too thought Tina Fey was part of Ilana’s crew.
When did all the passengers get murdered, anyway? I didn’t remember this, but I suppose not all of them followed Ilana’s people, Ben, Lapidus, Sun, and Locke’s corpse over to the statue, right?
Yeah, I agree Sideways Sawyer probably buried his grudge or at least it won’t be addressed again with the time we have remaining, Sean, I’m just seeing if I can squeeze it into a very narrow and specified theory that will likely not result in anything.
TJ made the interesting point on his blog that maybe Sideways Locke knows who his dad is and actually works with him as opposed to against, but again, addressing that would probably eat up more time than we’ve got (not to mention punt Locke’s “happy ending” to heck).
I totally thought Charlotte was looking for something more than a tee as well, but I chalk that more up to Rebecca Mader having a perpetually mischievous look about her than anything else. Related: Are there any other island chicks we’ve yet to see non-dirtied and all glammed up? Because obviously it is a de-light.
It’s pretty darn unlikely, but y’know what would be great/hilarious? If the payoff to the Sawyer/Kate sub hijack actually was them spending an entire episode bobbing and weaving between MIB and Widmore and get on the sub and then Sawyer sees all the equipment and goes “dammit.” Like, they *really* didn’t think it through.
I will be annoyed if Charlotte *wasn’t* just looking for a t-shirt. Sawyer says “top right drawer,” she waits for him to leave, gives a quick look-see to make sure he isn’t still there, and immediately starts hastily rummaging thru the bottom of the top-left drawer. But that begs lots of questions: what was she looking for? And why didn’t she accept Sawyer’s attempt to make peace later, if she wants to know his secrets? Did she simply get what she was looking for? And if so, to what end? At any rate, it was kind of convenient that Sawyer wasn’t hiding that folder under the mattress or something. The only thing that makes me think that this is all a red herring and that maybe she was just looking for a t-shirt is that there can’t be much time left for more sideways Sawyer.
I didn’t mind the cliffhanger. Kate’s response to “we’re takin’ the sub” implied that she, too, was confused as to how that was gonna work out, which implies to me that Sawyer has some kind of plan, whether it’s hijacking the fellas that do know how to captain a sub, or whatever. So it didn’t feel as random for me as it seemed to for Sean. And let’s face it, that plane doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere, I didn’t exactly see any space for it to accelerate enough for take off.
As for “everyone lyin’ all the time,” I thought it was interesting how *little* everyone was lying this episode. Sawyer is playing Widmore and Fake Locke by essentially telling them truths: He tells Widmore why Fake Locke sent him to Hydra Island, and tells Fake Locke exactly what he told Widmore (that he would bring back Fake Locke to be killed). Locke admits to Sawyer he’s the Smoke Monster and killed all the folks at the Temple, and tells Kate why he sent Sawyer to Hydra Island and why Claire attempted to kill her, etc. I know they’re all truths in the service of greater deceits, but still.
I was disappointed that we didn’t get a scene of Kate asking Sayid what the fuck he was thinking when he sat by and almost let Claire cut her throat. That’s gonna make for an awkward night around the fire.
Surprised nobody has noted that FS Charlotte is apparently a coworker of FS Pierre Chang, who is apparently alive.
At this point, I think the writers are flaunting their cleverness by giving double meanings to as much of the dialogue as they can, especially The Monster’s. So when he mentions his crazy mother, I figure he’s talking about what the Greeks called Chaos and the Babylonians called Tiamat. And that FS Charlotte’s “You blew it” to FS Sawyer is both about his chances with her and his choice to pursue revenge against Cooper.
Re: Rebecca Mader – You’re talking about Melisandre? That could be cool.
I just assumed Locke popped over to Hydra, smoked out and killed all the remaining Ajira passengers sometime between leaving the Statue and finding Sawyer at the barracks. Though I suppose Widmore’s crew could have killed them when they arrived on the sub.
I think we can count Faraday in the bad-mom category, since he never actually knew Widmore was his dad (right?), and Hawking had a bigger impact on his development. Kate has some mommy issues to go along with her daddy issues too. So did Boone/Shannon and Charlie, to certain degrees, though that doesn’t really matter much now.
Ben–I think Danielle is the only major character we haven’t seen glammed-up off-island. (Or Juliet, kind of; we’ve seen her off-island, but she was more glamorous on.) Let’s hope for a parent-teacher conference with Dr. Linus.
My first thought was also that Smokey Locke killed those Ajira passengers, but I’m not sure how to reconcile that with Island Tina Fey’s explanation of same to Sawyer before he saw thru her con. Her story seemed to implicate Smokey more than Widmore. I think she said she heard screams but not necessarily guns or a fight, which I would be inclined to assume was part of her attempted con, to implicate Fake Locke. Which makes me think it actually was Widmore’s crew since we know she’s full of shit.
I really enjoyed the whole F/S plot this week, from the buddy cop chemistry of Miles and Sawyer to the Little House callback, and the failed date with Charlotte. I also enjoyed the inversions of main plot and F/S plot– especially the first scene of lying Sawyer under the gun summoning his backup to playing the opposite role with Zoe.
I read the last scene as Sawyer coming clean, or opening up, and thereby growing past his relentless deception. But he doesn’t quite get to abandoning his need for vengeance before he’s interrupted. I must admit that the last scene with Kate kind of throws a wrench into my theory more generally. I’m taking it as a sign that they are wildcards in the equation, and that their loyalties and priorities remain in flux.
What did people make of the last scene between Claire and Kate? The reconciliation seemed important, but just like in Kate’s F/S, we don’t really have a chance to see what accounts for Claire’s sudden change of heart…
I dunno what to make of the last Claire/Kate scene. Either Claire is just crazy and as such prone to wild shifts in personality or Locke helped her see the light when they spoke by the fire (out of earshot). Kate seemed suspicious at first but clearly wants to believe in Claire, which seems like a dicey proposition to me.
Yeah, I’m going with Eric’s “prone to wild shifts in personality” explanation for Claire’s apology to Kate. I think she’s too far gone at this point to know whether she loves or hates her.
I kinda hope F/S Claire gets a particularly happy ending (or has already gotten one), because I can’t see “our” Claire not becoming a horrible tragedy whether she lives or dies. A far cry from who she was back in the throes of her innocent peanut butter-eating/Charlie-flirting days, and Emilie de Ravin’s reinvention of that character this season comes second only to Terry O’Quinn’s complete redefinition of his character in terms of blowing my mind.
One thing that i’m digging about the last few episodes: Fake locke doesn’t seem to be quite so good at manipulating folks as Ben Linus. Maybe connecting with Locke has weakened him somehow. He seems to get a bit frustrated, especially in this last episode – slapping Claire around, failing to con/seduce Kate to his side- he’s no Ben Linus, that’s for sure.
Maybe the last scene of the series will be Ben and Locke sitting on the beach, just like Jacob and Smokey.
One more thought – maybe Walt is locked up behind that door in the sub…
“Fake locke doesn’t seem to be quite so good at manipulating folks as Ben Linus.”
Or maybe there’s just a point of diminishing returns on how many times you can manipulate the same bunch of castaways. In the immortal words of George Bush, “Fool me once, shame on you… Fool me twice, uh, WON’T GET FOOLED AGAIN!”
I do appreciate that if somebody asks DeadLocke a question, they generally get an answer and not some enigmatic BS. When Kate asked him where he sent Sawyer, he told her. When Claire was freaking out, he set her straight. Yeah, he kinda fucked with Sawyer in order to get him to Hydra Island, but he still shot fairly straight with him.
On a show where Ben, Richard, Jacob, Dogen etc. seem to be allergic to straight answers, it’s refreshing.
* Ben:
I do think the issue of Locke’s dad/Sawyer’s conman will be addressed, just not at length and not in the context of an episode-long flashsideways with the revelation at the climax.
You and Eric have me convinced that she really was looking for something other than a t-shirt, but until I am told otherwise it seems more likely to me that this was just run-of-the-mill snooping on your new love interest rather than something sinister or significant. When I go through people’s medicine cabinets, I’m not acting on orders from Widmore. Wait, was that out loud?
We would need some ladies/gay men to confirm this, but speaking from the perspective of a male-attractiveness layman (so to speak), my hunch is that while the women of Lost get hotter as they get cleaner, the men of Lost get hotter as they get dirtier. Y/N?
Ben, if Sawyer successfully shanghais the sub only to realize he can’t pilot it, I will laugh so hard and Lost will become my all-time favorite show.
* Eric:
Nice train of thought on the uncliffhanger being cliffhangery in the sense that it raises the question of how the heck Sawyer plans to use the sub. I still think it’s an anticlimax, though. And I didn’t buy the plane thing as anything but a ruse by Fake Locke at any time. The runway’s too short, and there’s no windshields anymore!
I think you’re playing with semantics when you claim there was surprisingly little lying in this episode. Even if Sawyer started by telling Widmore the truth, he sure didn’t end that way, and that’s what counts. Meanwhile, Fake Locke had been lying to Claire all along about Aaron’s fate, Claire was “lying” when she held Kate’s hand like everything was cool between them, Sawyer and Zoe were lying to each other the whole time, Fake Locke lied to Sawyer about why he was sending him to Hydra Island, and on and on.
I thought Kate sitting alone crying paid off Sayid’s inaction, Claire’s murderousness, and Fake Locke’s creepiness all pretty well, without a direct confrontation with any of ’em.
* hilker:
Wait, when did Pierre Chang come up?
I sure hope Fake Locke is talking about Tiamat.
* Gardner:
Melisandre, yep. Keep in mind I’m saying this having read no further than the prologue to Book Two, so maybe I’m wrong.
I agree that Fake Locke seems the most likely candidate to have offed the Ajira castaways.
Glam Rousseau? Fingers crossed!
* Eric again: Zoe’s story about the death of the Ajira people could conversely be interpreted to have been selected not as a way to frame an innocent Fake Locke, but as simply the most believable cause of death for them, so it could be true after all.
* Simon:
The Little House thing was a hoot. I tend to find the use of lengthy clips from other media within TV shows or films strangely creepy and thrilling.
Like you and Eric, I’m not sure what to make of Claire and Kate’s apparent rapprochement. On this show, you usually get a surreptitious, sinister grin or narrowing of the eyes to indicate that someone’s being deceitful, and we didn’t get that here, for whatever that’s worth.
* Ben:
Your praise of de Ravin’s transformation makes me think. I don’t think she’s in O’Quinn’s league, or Michael Emerson’s to name another character who started as one thing and became quite another, but I also get that’s not what you’re saying. What you made me think was that we’ve always had traces of hysteria and vindictiveness in Claire. It’s easy to forget, because our mental picture of her is very much shaped by the peanut-butter scene, associations we all have with the image of the mother and child, the fact that she’s angelic-looking, and so on. But we’ve seen her nasty or at her wit’s end time and again: In flashbacks, when she was at vicious odds with her mother and then flipped when her mom was in an accident, when she rejected Christian, when she was in utterly desperate straits over what to do about her pregnancy; and on the Island, with her love/hate relationship with Charlie (“Stay away from me and the bay-bee, Chahlie, alrawt?”) and her intensely personal and traumatic kidnapping experiences with Rousseau and Ethan. Thinking back, it’s not as huge a leap as it seems at first, which is smart writing. It’s easier to see her going insane–not becoming a bastard, but going nuts–than it is to see almost any other character.
* COOP, Eric again, Ben again:
I think maybe Fake Locke’s relatively un-deft manipulation and his willingness not to beat around the bush both stem from the same thing, which is that he’s been waiting all this time and simply doesn’t have a ton of patience left, plus he’s confident he’s got this in the bag. Why go through elaborate ruses or waste time playing cat and mouse? He’s the goddamn Smoke Monster and he’s getting off the damn Island!
Re: Fake Locke’s mommy issues: somebody on another message board (Yes, I’m a nerd DEAL WITH IT) made the comparison to The Tempest.
wiki swipe:
“When he comes ashore at the island, Prospero finds three inhabitants there: Ariel, a spirit, Caliban, presumed to be Ariel’s brother, and their mother, Sycorax. When Prospero reached the island Sycorax was already dead and he frees Ariel from being trapped in a pine tree. Throughout the play, Prospero uses this act of liberty as blackmail against Ariel. For the next twelve years, Prospero practices his Dark Arts, ultimately raising a tempest that drives his usurpers ashore. The entire play takes place on an island under his control, where the native inhabitants, Ariel and Caliban, aid or hinder his work.”
Is this where they are going, or is it just more smoky bullshit?
Anyone? Bueller?
Oh, and you are so correct about FakeLocke’s fading powers of persuasion. He’s completely impatient and fed up with handholding these dimwits! He’s probably wondering how Jacob put up with their whiny asses for so long. It’s Smoky’s time to shine!
Good call.
Pierre Chang wasn’t mentioned by name, but when Miles sets up the blind date, he describes Charlotte as “A friend of mine. Works with my dad at the museum.”
I think you’re right about fake locke’s fading persuasion, too. And definitely so about my playing semantics, just thought it was interesting and a bit more pronounced than the usual lying that goes on left and right.
I’m beginning to think that Fake Locke=Sideshow Bob, except he killed his Bart – Jacob. and who are the LOSTies? Why, “Bart’s People”, of course.
If Fake Locke steps on a rake when he gets out of the outrigger on Hydra Island, we’ll know for sure.
Also:
Widmore=Mr. Burns
Desmond=Groundskeeper Willy
Keamy=Kearny
Daniel Faraday=Professor Frink (both built time machines)
Re: The Tempest
I’ve seen Nemesis as a Caliban figure, but my recollection doesn’t hold him as a brother to Ariel. I always thought that Caliban was Sycorax’s only child, and Ariel a servant to Sycorax before being “freed” by Prospero.
What finally convinced me that MiB is not Caliban is that he wants above all to leave the island. Caliban wants to expel the interloper Prospero to reclaim what is his.
I’m listening to a couple of my office-mates RAGE about how much they hate the F/S stuff because it’s not providing them with answers and thinking about how once upon a time I was totally in that camp and now have firmly come over to the “if it’s well-acted and intriguing, I could care less how it fits in the big mythology” side, where I never thought I would be.
I thought the last line was fine. Sawyer is not always rational and does ridiculous things at times. Even if you can’t imagine Sawyer being able to pilot a sub, we do know that, during his time as the head of security for Dharma, he did have intimate knowledge about a sub that would come and go from the Island. He also has been in subs on a number of occasions. Didn’t he also command or demand a sub return to the Island with Kate and Juliette?
Sean, I like the fact that Widmore might not be an ally of MIB. I thought he might be at one time too but I would almost think of that as being too easy. I, for one, think Widmore is a very interesting character. I would almost venture to say that he could turn out to be a lot better of a guy than we probably all think. I mean, we still don’t really know what his motives are. Sure, we have seen him be cruel to Desmond; we all believe that his mercenaries were, in part, sent to the Island to kill certain people or at least capture certain people. However, we don’t really know that his intentions are all bad. He seems to know more about the Island than perhaps anyone aside from Richard, Hawking, Jacob and MIB.
Touching a little bit on the last few episodes that I didn’t comment on at all (my apologies).
Sayid and Claire: Sayid and Claire show a totally different allegiance to MIB than any other of our castaways. Sawyer seems to be on MIB’s side. However, from the last scene, and from the flash sideways about Sawyer, I think we are supposed to derive that Sawyer is never really on anyone’s side. Why is it that Claire and Sayid seem to be more subservient to MIB than others? I am willing to bet that it has to do with the death or near deaths of Claire and Sayid on the Island.
I am still under the impression that Claire either died in the house explosion and came close to dying and, much like Sayid, was brought, somehow, back to life by the evils of MIB. When that happens, it is only a matter of time before they become MIB’s bitches, so to speak. So for my money, Sayid really may have made the choice to join MIB, but, it wasn’t really a choice (if you know what I am saying).
Character’s have even mentioned that MIB will come to you as someone you know and, more importantly, someone that has died. So, it is obvious, that much of MIB’s powers stem from death or the souls of the dead.
Dogen was a great character. “There is a darkness growing in him and, once it reaches his heart, everything your friend once was will be gone.” That is what happened to Sayid. Why wouldn’t we believe Dogen? I don’t think Sayid had much of a say in turning to the dark side so to speak.
By the way, how f’ing cool was Dogen. Sean, some of the seems with him in physical combat reminded me of Remo Williams where the crazy Master is beating the crap out of Remo. Ha. However, I think Dogen’s bluntness in that scene to Sayid is extremely telling. Dogen talks about the machine he hooked Sayid up to explaining that it basically measures good vs. evil in a person. He then states shortly thereafter, “Yes. I think it would be best if you were dead.” Let’s think about this, Dogen is being confronted by a man that was dead and suddenly came back to life. He tortures said man and let him live. He then tries to get said man’s friend to kill him. He is now confronted again by Sayid and instead of being somewhat timid or toying with him, he simply reaffirms that Sayid needs to be killed. As an Other, and obviously a very important Other at that, Dogen probably is aware of Sayid’s past. He is confronted by a torturer for the Iraqi Republican Guard, a man that has snapped people’s neck with his legs, a man that has been an international hitman for Ben Linus and he still shows absolutely no remorse in front of Sayid. In fact, when Sayid goes on to try to explain that Dogen really doesn’t know the kind of person he is, Dogen goes into freak mode and attacks him without even listening to Sayid’s sob story. So, in my humble opinion, I trust Dogen on this. From the moment Sayid was mysteriously brought back to life, his trip to the darkside, unlike Darth Vader’s, was not going to have any type of redemption or happy ending. (By the way, I like to rewatch the episodes while writing about them and this fight scene with Dogen and Sayid gives me chills. Awesome.) It is noteworthy that Dogen easily won the upper hand and could have dispatched Sayid but the memories of his son got the best of him and he, mercifully, let Sayid leave.
The acting in “Sun Down,” is amazing.
Back to Sayid, and I don’t mean to beat a dead horse (no pun intended) but even Miles confirms that the Temple Others did not bring Sayid back to life. Miles confirms that the Temple Others did not bring Sayid back to life. He was dead two hours and whatever brought him back, it was not the Others. Reinforcing the point that MIB was probably the one to bring back and then influence Sayid.
Do we give any credence to Sayid really being able to kill MIB if Sayid plunges the blade that Dogen gave him into MIB’s chest prior to MIB getting out any words to Sayid? It is played off as if Dogen knew he was sending Sayid on a inevitable suicide mission, but what if there was truth to it. Sayid asks Dogen why he should do anything that Dogen says for him to do? Dogen replies with something to the effect, if there ‘is still good in your soul, then prove it!’ Perhaps, Dogen is telling somewhat of a truth here. Obviously, Dogen is the Temple Master. MIB cannot enter the Temple if Dogen is alive which is confirmed by Lennon. Dogen has some type of power when in the Temple and alive. He was chosen by Jacob for this very role. When Sayid does meet MIB outside the Temple walls, MIB does speak to Sayid prior to Sayid’s attempt of MIB’s life. So, again, why would we think Dogen, of all Others, would be a liar?
Random thought: Kate hot, Charlotte hot, Liz Cho hot, Claire creepy (not hot Miles). Also, it’s funny that I am writing a thesis on Lost and watching old DVRed episodes when the NCAA tourney is on TV.
“Hello Sayid.” Action – stabbing of MIB. “Now, why’d you go and do that.”
(I know this post is going to be a novel.)
Sayid, “What are you?”
MIB, “Well, Sayid, you seem to have some idea about that considering you stabbed me in the chest without even saying hello.”
I think those remarks from MIB almost confirm that there may have been some truth in Dogen’s statement that maybe, MIB can be killed if done a certain way.
Kate and Claire scene in the temple: Silence of the Lambs-esque. Creepy much. My suspicion, MIB needs Kate alive. Granted she may or may not be one of the candidates, which could explain why she is not killed by Smokey but also, I tend to hypothesize that MIB needs Kate alive to try to influence Jack and Sawyer in episodes to come.
Who killed the Ajira passengers? My guess would be the MIB as smokey like many others have stated above.
“You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. Every cook will tell you that.” Keamy! Great scene as per usual. I don’t know exactly where that plot line is going but it was a welcome one. I think Sayid offing Keamy is a precursor and also a consequence of the story line taking place on the Island. Sayid, maybe deep down, wants to be a better person but it is just destined that he cannot be.
“You let him talk to you,” Dogen to Sayid prior to Dogen’s murder.
Dogen’s story to Sayid prior to Dogen’s murder, yet again, a juxtaposition of a good man next to an evil man. Dogen next to Sayid. Dogen’s bargain with Jacob, though perhaps a hard one, was that between two good men. Sayid’s bargain with MIB, the opposite.
Ben acts like he has been in the Temple before which is obviously the case. Miles about Jarrah, “He was headed to the pool room.” Ben, “I’ll go get him.” Next Ben arrives at the pool room. Ben’s familiarity with the Temple must be from when he was little and shot by Sayid?
Last scenes of “Sun Down,” totally f’ing sweet.
Ben’s face after Sayid says, “Not for me,” priceless.
“Dr. Linus”
Principal Reynold. “Yes, it’s true. This man has no dick.” Peck, hahahahaha. Awesome.
Were people really complaining about the realisms of Dr. Linus trying to take over Reynolds’ job? Come on. Total knit pick if you ask me.
Glad we get an explanation of Miles’ powers. I love the fact that Miles was able to confirm that Ben seemingly did in fact kill Jacob. That was a question I had pondered. Miles’ first statements don’t make this a fact but later, when he states that the blade went into Jacob’s heart and Jacob wished he had been wrong about Ben the whole time kind of confirmed, at least for me, that Ben, and not MIB, struck the death blow to Jacob. That was very satisfying and, frankly, well written and played by the Lost writers.
Richard vs. Jack. Great scene. I am glad that Jack finally starts to embrace the fact that Jacob has not been watching him for so long just to let him die in an explosion at the Black Rock. I am also happy to see Jack starting to take on a leadership role for the “good” team. Instead of being whiney and over dramatic, Jack seems to have finally bought into the fact that he is a very important person.
Ben’s flash sideways: I liked it a lot. It was uniquely satisfying. I think it goes a long way to justify Ben Linus and his actions. Did he ever want Alex to die at the hands of Keamy? Obviously not. Ben, deep down, is a decent man. His methods have been, admittedly, regrettable. However, he was, at times, acting on behalf of what he thought was in the best interest of the Island.
Miles confiding to Ben that Jacob did really care about his own death right before the blade pierced his heart and that Jacob had hoped, beyond hope, that he was wrong about Ben all along…great!
Can’t wait for Richard’s story. Is it safe to say he was on the Black Rock? I remember MIB commenting that it was nice to see Richard out of his chains. Pretty sure that the Black Rock had chains in the same compartment where Richard wanted to be killed!
Ben possesses the same cunning and killer instinct in his flash sideways that he showed on the Island for so long as the strangely intriguing, villain leader of the Others. The one big difference is that Ben is more quick to embrace his good side in his flash sideways than his is to come to terms with it on the Island. His compassion for Alex Rousseau off the Island parallels his decision to stay with the “good” camp on the Island after his impassioned plea to Ilana (superb acting).
Should we draw any comparison to Richard and Michael both not being able to kill themselves even though they seemingly want to at points? Michael was only finally allowed to die when he had served his purpose to the Island. Will Richard meet a similar end?
“Why do I want to die? Because I just found out my entire life had no purpose” Could this scene have been anymore awesome. No. Jack’s story about the lighthouse reflecting the image of his childhood home and coming to the realization that Jacob wanted him to see that image for a reason (even when he angrily smashed the Lighthouse mechanism to pieces), totally cool. Jack finally embraces the fact that Jacob has brought him to the Island for a reason and he knows, for a fact, that he is not wrong about that, it was a total mind blow.
“What if you’re wrong?”
Jack, “I’m not.” Jack closes his eyes as if omnipotent and omniscient! Totally Luke Skywalker-esque! (R2-D2 is going to launch me might light saber and I am going to go bananas and rescue all of my friends from the clutches of Jabba or I am going to dislodge my light saber from this freezing terrain and kill the Hoth Wampa.) Loved it.
Ben’s attempted coup at his school: Reinforces Ben’s cunning ways and, at the same time, the outcome of this attempted coup mimics Ben’s redemption on the Island (i.e. his turnaround to the “good” camp).
Ben vs. Ilana: One of the best Lost scenes ever. I know, Sean, that you are not a huge fan of Ilana but this was great. Ben’s acting is so ridiculously good, it made me want to cry. I think Ilana’s story is yet to be divulged and I also think that she will prove to be interesting. Ben admits here that he can never forgive himself for Jacob’s death.
“Because he’s the only one that will have me.” Ben is utterly shocked that Ilana can forgive him for his transgressions. I think it was so satisfying to see Ben realize his mistakes and try to atone for them. It made me really happy.
The reunion of Sun and Jack and Hurley was very poignant. Jack steps to the side to see Ben on his team, so to speak. Then the periscope, and Widmore. As good as it gets…
“Recon”
“That is not Locke.”
Unlike Kate, I am glad that Jin seems to be aware of the crazy camp he is now, reluctantly, a part of. Seriously, how can Kate stand to be surrounded by crazy Claire and also to be walking side by side with Fake Locke.
Sawyer as a cop, believable. As he even states, he would have either been a criminal or a cop. Either way, he was still destined to want vengeance on the conman that led to the deaths of his father and mother. I do happen to believe that Anthony Cooper is still Locke’s father. Why Locke has a good relationship with said father is a little bit more of a mystery to me.
It’s nice to see MIB’s clear dominance over his camp. He gets angry at Sawyer interrupting him while he was speaking to his crew. He slaps around Claire. He sends Sawyer on errands. It is clear that he maintains strict control over almost all that he influences. It is yet to be seen, however, if he can really control Sawyer. As even MIB admits, Sawyer is the best liar that even MIB has even met. That must be saying something.
Sawyer, like Face of the A-Team, has never met a girl he couldn’t bed. Hehe. And I bet, much like Face, he doesn’t use condoms (sorry, inside college joke).
Sayid clearly is falling more and more under the influence of MIB.
“Sayid, are you alright?”
“No.”
I like that Kate picks up the rifle to defend herself after MIB knocks Claire off of her. And the fact that Sayid doesn’t lift a finger to help Kate, again, telling.
Widmore: I tend to think that Widmore is not all bad as documented above. A creep, yes. A totally evil creep, yet to be determined. The fact that Widmore’s crew seems to be setting up the sonar fences seems to imply that Widmore needs to also be protected from MIB. Granted, it could all be a rouse.
Also notice Charlie’s brother at the police station. What is the significance? Charlie must be alive in the flash sideways?
Miles does seem to imply, that his father works at some kind of museum and that Pierre Chang is, in fact, alive and ticking in the flash sideways.
Kind of knew that when Zoe started asking so many questions of Sawyer that she was not whom she claimed to be.
Tears do look good on Kate.
For some reason, I just can’t trust MIB for his explanation of exactly why he told Claire that the Others had Aaron.
Weird, Sawyer detects being lied to? That never happens.
“Take to me to your leader.” Yes.
MIB’s mother issues: Not quite sure what this was all about. Perhaps just to humanize MIB and try to shed light on his issues. Maybe even MIB has mixed feelings about his mission in terms of the Island. Maybe if things had been different for him, he would not be doing everything that has unfolded this season?
“Because now, Aaron, has a crazy mother too.” Does this imply that Aaron is similar to MIB? Maybe MIB is hinting that Aaron might follow his evil path. Could Aaron turn out to be MIB’s replacement? Whereas, maybe, Walt will turn out to be Jacob’s?
Widmore must be that heavily guarded for a reason. Who else would be be that highly protected from? Has to be MIB, no?
They make a point to imply and show that Widmore is hiding something or someone under lock and key in the sub. Could this be Walt? I know that Sean would love that.
From Sawyer’s conversation and the tenor of it with Widmore, I can’t fathom Widmore being on the same “side” as MIB. Widmore honestly seems pleased with Sawyer’s plan. I thought maybe Sawyer would lie to MIB when he got back and then Widmore would rat him out to MIB if, in fact, Widmore and MIB were on the same team. That did not occur.
Instead, Sawyer tells MIB the truth, leaving Widmore with no leverage to hold over on Sawyer. Thus, I conclude that Sawyer, even though he states that he is with Locke, still does not have any allegiance to anyone in particular and just wants to get himself and anyone that he truly cares about (i.e. Kate and Miles, and maybe Hurley) off of the Island.
Claire’s apology to Kate towards the end of recon: Another rouse? Not sure.
Closing scene: MIB obviously knows Widmore and is definitely concerned about his presence on Hydra Island. Why did he send Sawyer on the recon mission? Does he lack some of his powers in the face of Widmore? I don’t know. I seem to believe MIB probably killed the Ajira survivors on the Hydra Island which would lead me to believe that he can appear as Smokey on Hydra Island as well. So not sure what that all means in the wrong run….
I agree with my bro on Sawyer’s fair enough statement. It is almost as if he realizes that Miles would be right and just in trying to convince Sawyer, the cop, not to hunt down and kill Anthony Cooper even with all the pain Cooper had caused Sawyer.
Sara, my fiance, also questioned why Sawyer would not rat on Kate in the airport scene? I am not sure. It probably has to due with the fact that Sawyer did not want anyone to know about his trip to Austrailia. For all we know, Sawyer still did kill someone on that trek?
“We’re taking the sub.” The End.
If you haven’t, check out Flashforward, I really like it.
I finally got to see this episode tonight after avoiding spoilers and enjoyed it for the most part. The whole Kate/Claire thing did seem to fizzle quickly — there should have been more foreshadowing of maybe all is not well if that’s what they intend. I think F/S Sawyer is basically happy because he’s on the good side. Kate is still f’ed up and she’ll always be on the run. She belongs with Smokey.
The highlight, though, was the “Little House on the Epiphany” scene. Is there anyone on earth who cannot be helped by the preachings of Pa Ingalls?
* COOP, Simon: I love that we’re making Shakespeare and Simpsons references now and they all feel equally apropos.
“He’s completely impatient and fed up with handholding these dimwits!” Hahaha!
* hilker: Good catch on Miles mentioning his Dad. Slipped right past me.
* Ben: Regarding people getting fed up with the flashsideways stuff because we don’t know how it ties in yet: I’ve been surprised to hear about this kind of thing. It’s very little in evidence around these comment threads, or in the people I’m regularly reading about the show. (Basically just VanDerWerff, and Ryland Walker Knight and Noel Murray occasionally–Sepinwall, good as he can be, has always struck me as too anxious to find reasons not to enjoy himself, and Maureen Ryan gets a little too “OMG@!!!” for me.). Anyway it’s not surprising that it never would have occurred to me to complain about this sort of thing, since that’s always been my viewpoint on the show: Other people’s “filler episodes” are some of my favorites, because I’m interested in these characters and want to get to know them. (Ha, I remember telling Damon Lindelof I loved the Rose & Bernard episode and he told me that most people hated it!) In that light, the show has done a great job in keeping the interior core of each character consistent across the two parallel storylines this season–never have I felt “Oh no, So-and-So would NEVER do something like that!”
But I know that this is just me, and that other people watch the show for other reasons. But here’s the thing: Doesn’t it seem obvious that at some point, something will click into place and all the flashsideways stuff will suddenly “make sense” and “matter” and become rather revelatory? I guess I shouldn’t be, but I’m surprised people who’ve followed this show for the duration are suddenly running out of patience over a device that seems clear to pay off in a few more episodes.
* Heidi: “Little House on the Epiphany” made me laugh out loud, then laugh out loud again forty minutes later when I remembered it.
* Ryan:
Glad to have you back, brother! [/Desmond accent]
It’s funny you should bring up Sawyer’s Dharma days, because before I made my joke about that in the post, I really did have to sit and think “Wait–DID they establish that Sawyer learned how to drive the sub?” Maybe they did!
Regarding Widmore, if he’s not working for the MIB, my assumption is simply that he wants the Island all to himself. No Ben, no Richard, no Jacob, no Locke, no Fake Locke–mine, all mine!
Re: Claire and Sayid–Before she murdered that Other with an axe, the story she told of her captivity seemed to imply she was “healed” at some point in much the same way as Sayid. Perhaps you’re right, and her near-death experience was how the MIB got his hooks so deep into her. Then again, we also saw her hanging out with “Christian” in “Jacob’s” cabin that time–presumably that was before the Others brought her to the Temple and whatever went down there went down.
I liked Dogen too. I’ve seen some mixed feelings about him around the Internet, which I sort of understand given how much of a familiar archetype he was–the Master from Remo Williams is a good comparison in that regard–but it’s a familiar archetype I like!
I too think Dogen can be trusted on what happened to Sayid.
And I too have wondered about whether the MIB saying “Hello, Sayid” was enough to do whatever damage Dogen warned Sayid about in terms of not letting him speak. (That whole thing is very “Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli confronting the White Wizard,” by the way.)
Good call on the Silence of the Lambs visual shout-out with Kate and Claire, only in this case the crazy person’s in the pit!
I’m glad I’m not the only person who thought of Colonel Mustard’s speech to Mrs. Peacock when Keamy was making breakfast. Here’s a question for you: Do you think, as some of my commenters do, that there’s cross-timeline significance to Keamy’s behavior? That is, are the “bad guys” we’ve seen–Dogen, Ethan, Keamy–on a similar emotional journey in their flashsidewayses as the main characters, where they either fail or succeed in putting their Island-timeline demons to rest?
Re: Ben and the Temple: He’s talked about it before throughout the seasons–he’s the one who sent most of the Others there when he learned Widmore’s people were coming, for example–so I assume he’s been there many a time. Keep in mind he also recognized Dogen and Lennon floating dead face-down in cloudy water.
Dude, I was one of the people complaining about the realism of the principal thing! 🙂 Between Mom and my wife it’s tough not to!
Agreed on Miles’ reading of Jacob’s last thoughts being a welcome clarification. It really wasn’t clear whether the killing blow was the stab wound from Ben, or the kick into the fire from Fake Locke.
Good point on Ben’s flashsideways: The Island brought something out in him he otherwise would have been able to suppress and overcome. I don’t think you can say he’s a decent man in the Island timeline, but perhaps he can hang on to his decent fragments long enough to partially redeem himself. (He’s always gonna be a mass murderer. Richard too!)
Yeah, Richard came on the Black Rock, that seems pretty clear.
Here’s my question about the similarities between Richard and Michael both not being able to commit suicide: Tom Friendly told Michael the Island wasn’t through with him yet, right? So what does “the Island” in that context really mean? Jacob? The MIB? Or really the Island?
I’m willing to be turned around on Ilana. This ain’t Season Three and I ain’t some fanboy kvetching about Nikki and Paolo. 🙂
I was glad to see Sawyer’s apparent “conversion” to the MIB’s side was just a matter of pragmatism, and that as you say, he’s still really only on his own side. MAYBE his friends’ side too.
Sawyer has indeed made a grand tour of the bathing-suit areas of the female cast. I wonder if he’ll find time to bed down Crazy Claire.
“Sayid, are you alright?” “No.” Great exchange. Understatement of the year, Sayid!
Charlie’s definitely alive in the flashsideways timeline, Ryan–remember, Jack and Sayid saved him from choking on his heroin in the airplane bathroom, and we saw him getting arrested and led off the plane?
I think the stuff with Aaron maybe turning into MIB Jr. due to his crazy mom is meant to call to mind all the business about how important it supposedly was for Claire to raise him herself rather than give him away. Well, she didn’t raise him. DUN DUN DUNNNNN!
And if they’re getting back to playing up Aaron’s mystical importance, then I think they totally will bring Walt back into play too, and thus I totally think it’s Walt trapped in the closet. And by “totally think” I mean “PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!”
Yeah, I was wondering if Widmore and MIB both knew more than they were letting on and were both playing Sawyer to the same end, i.e. that they really ARE in cahoots but are only trying to make it look like they’re not, and this is some kind of test of Sawyer’s loyalty/attempt to make Sawyer, Kate, and the rest of the castaways do some dirty work of some kind so that MIB and Widmore can be reunited. I dunno.
Hey, seeing Widmore’s people setting up the sonic fence on Hydra Island made me wonder: The Others at the Temple were protected by the ash, and the Others in New Otherton were protected by the fence. But when Ben and company were all hanging out at the Hydra station all the time, what protected them then? Can the Monster not go over there? If so, that must mean that Widmore’s people killed the Ajira castaways, but there were no bullet wounds, so how? He’d tried to use poison gas before, so I assume that’s how?
Still gotta check out Flashforward, Ry. I will!
* Finally, I wanna say that these discussions make me enjoy each episode more, and I’m really happy about that. Thanks, everyone!
I swear that Sawyer heard that clickety-clack sound that the smoke monster makes when he landed on Hydra Island in this episode, didn’t he? I sweat it! Otherwise this show really has driven me off the deep end (which would explain why I’ve built a baby out of fur and bones and tuck him into my bed beside me every night).
Oh, and yes Sean, all the dudes are MUCH hotter covered with filth and grime, Sean. Unshaven, their shirts hanging open and their tees all sweaty…. YES.
I knew you’d come through for me, Jason. So to speak.
(I don’t think we heard the clickety-clack, btw)
We first saw Fake Locke on Hydra Island, so yeah, it’s not off limits for the smokemeister.
“I think the stuff with Aaron maybe turning into MIB Jr. due to his crazy mom is meant to call to mind all the business about how important it supposedly was for Claire to raise him herself rather than give him away. Well, she didn’t raise him. DUN DUN DUNNNNN!”
You know, I (and I guess most viewers) have always thought this whole busienss with Claire being warned not to let Aaron be raised by another was for Aaron’s well being, or prevent him from becoming a monster. But maybe it was actually for Claire’s all along? She didn’t raise him, and now she’s the one who’s become a “monster”.